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Shauny Boy

Mouse and keyboard on xbox??

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8 hours ago, CahillUSMarshal said:

I hate this M/K crap. I'm on the leaderboard and for sure the guys above me are using it. How am I suppose to keep up with that? Git gud!?

Not to worry, PUBG has a plan for curbing the use of these, but I share your frustration - Its bad sportsmanship at best, many look at it like cheating and at this point I'm inclined to agree, especially when I see Xbox streamers admitting that they use M&K. 

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1 hour ago, dreamleash31 said:

A far more simple solution is to just do split lobbies, there are ways of detecting these devices even if a third party emulator is being used. Personally one of the things that spark my initial interest in PUBG was the lack of aim assist, you really gotta try to hit what you're shooting at which really hikes up the realism in my opinion. They just need to make it so that people with M&K end up in lobbies only with other M&K players. 

How is it detected?  The xim is literally controlling an official Xbox controller.

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I can confirm two nights ago an American on my team was using a mouse and keyboard and I can also confirm he was crap. And that's coming from me, and I'm really shit. But I was still better than him. 

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Developers have the ability to use APIs that can detect AND block third party emulators, in case you're not familiar with the term, in computer programming an application programming interface is a set of subroutine definitions, protocols, and tools for building software. In general terms, it is a set of clearly defined methods of communication between various components.

Edited by dreamleash31

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10 minutes ago, dreamleash31 said:

Developers have the ability to use APIs that can detect AND block third party emulators, in case you're not familiar with the term, in computer programming an application programming interface is a set of subroutine definitions, protocols, and tools for building software. In general terms, it is a set of clearly defined methods of communication between various components.

 

 If it’s so easy, why has no AAA developer or PUBG not done it yet ?

If the emulator produces exactly the same output as the controller how can the API be detected ?

 

 

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18 minutes ago, dreamleash31 said:

Developers have the ability to use APIs that can detect AND block third party emulators, in case you're not familiar with the term, in computer programming an application programming interface is a set of subroutine definitions, protocols, and tools for building software. In general terms, it is a set of clearly defined methods of communication between various components.

 

yawning.jpg

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2 minutes ago, I Bad Co I said:

 

 If it’s so easy, why has no AAA developer or PUBG not done it yet ?

If the emulator produces exactly the same output as the controller how can the API be detected ?

 

 

That is the million dollar question my friend, who knows? Perhaps PUBG did not take the time to invest in a good API, but that's just speculation.  As to your second question, PUBGs API should be detecting the emulator, so either it is and they just have bigger concerns right now, or it isn't because it's garbage. 

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39 minutes ago, PredatorJuice said:

I can confirm two nights ago an American on my team was using a mouse and keyboard and I can also confirm he was crap. And that's coming from me, and I'm really shit. But I was still better than him. 

It's true, not everyone who uses a M&K is instantly a PUBG god lol it takes some time and practice like anything else. The point is that the "skill roof", if you will, is undoubtedly higher with a M&K, not to mention the fact that they have DPI and polling rates which controllers do not.

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25 minutes ago, dreamleash31 said:

Developers have the ability to use APIs that can detect AND block third party emulators, in case you're not familiar with the term, in computer programming an application programming interface is a set of subroutine definitions, protocols, and tools for building software. In general terms, it is a set of clearly defined methods of communication between various components.

now its my turn!   

 

"Amazing, everything* you just said is wrong lol "

 

 

*highlighted text

 

10 minutes ago, dreamleash31 said:

That is the million dollar question my friend, who knows? Perhaps PUBG did not take the time to invest in a good API, but that's just speculation.  As to your second question, PUBGs API should be detecting the emulator, so either it is and they just have bigger concerns right now, or it isn't because it's garbage.  

 

there is no million dollar question.   AAA dev CEOs wouldn't write Microsoft asking for help if it was so easy.      they would fix the problem.

 

in answer to this, NOBODY has done it because they can't.   An EMULATOR, EMULATES another third party API, which is undetectable (the emulation, not the third party API).   ban one API and the emulator will just pick another third-party API.   So you have to ban all third party devices, which means banning 49 legitimate third party devices because 1 person is using a input conversion device. 

 

hasn't been yet, and will never be banned.    .... 

People complained about this at a minimum 3 years ago and everyone was asying "it will be banned soon! they are looking into it"     fast forward three years and nothing is banned, only now we have a new game called PUBG with the same people going "it will be banned soon! they are looking into it"        dont hold your breath

 

Heck, even people with video proof using them still don't get banned because Microsoft wont put it in the TOS.

AND then to cap it all off, even if they could detect and ban it (which they can't) -  of the small percentage that do use it, some use it for legitimate needs/handicap.   so good luck with a lawsuit after banning those people.   

 

 

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1 minute ago, RL4LIFE said:

now its my turn!   

 

"Amazing, everything* you just said is wrong lol "

 

 

*highlighted text

 

 

there is no million dollar question.   AAA dev CEOs wouldn't write Microsoft asking for help if it was so easy.      they would fix the problem.

 

in answer to this, NOBODY has done it because they can't.   An EMULATOR, EMULATES another third party API, which is undetectable (the emulation, not the third party API).   ban one API and the emulator will just pick another third-party API.   So you have to ban all third party devices, which means banning 49 legitimate third party devices because 1 person is using a input conversion device. 

 

hasn't been yet, and will never be banned.    .... 

People complained about this at a minimum 3 years ago and everyone was asying "it will be banned soon! they are looking into it"     fast forward three years and nothing is banned, only now we have a new game called PUBG with the same people going "it will be banned soon! they are looking into it"        dont hold your breath

 

Heck, even people with video proof using them still don't get banned because Microsoft wont put it in the TOS.

AND then to cap it all off, even if they could detect and ban it (which they can't) -  of the small percentage that do use it, some use it for legitimate needs/handicap.   so good luck with a lawsuit after banning those people.   

 

 

Lmao now this is funny, a law suit? On what grounds? As to everything I said being wrong lol it doesn't make it so just because you say it. Here, I'll even follow your example and quote from someone who knows more than me, the Vice President of Microsoft Mike Ybarra - "Developers have the choice to use APIs that detect and not allow these. It’s up to them, but the capability is there." Case closed but thanks for the novel all the same lol.

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5 minutes ago, dreamleash31 said:

Lmao now this is funny, a law suit? On what grounds? As to everything I said being wrong lol it doesn't make it so just because you say it. Here, I'll even follow your example and quote from someone who knows more than me, the Vice President of Microsoft Mike Ybarra - "Developers have the choice to use APIs that detect and not allow these. It’s up to them, but the capability is there." Case closed but thanks for the novel all the same lol.

well if you want to continue quoting mike Ybarra - he exactly says on what grounds

 

" We could but there are helpful scenarios with these devices (accessibility for one). Our general approach is to empower the developer to manage their game how they want. "

good luck with the PR campaign after you ban the device little hadicap Jim uses to play a game.

 

and then if you do further research instead of just taking random context quotes to support you,  you will see that of course Devs can use APIs to detect what type of hardware is being used.  If the hardware is known to be used by an XIM they could indeed "not allow it"  

 

but- herin lies the problem, you are banning whatever input device the xim is using, NOT the xim.   

 

John uses controller LXZY to hook up his XIM through.   the XIM has software loaded to use that API and convert the inputs as pass through for keyboard and mouse.

bill uses the same controller LXZY but without an XIM

 

the developer has now banned both of them even though only 1 was using an XIM


and to top it all off XIM manufacture gets wind of this and then just pushes updates for different API's.    This results in XIM and the Devs playing a cat and mouse game that just results in people who aren't using XIM having their hardware banned and XIM users just adapting while the DEV plays catch up and never really fix the problem. 

 

so from a dev perspective, you would be spending resources fighting a never ending battle   -   with dozens and dozens of innocent casualties, that could end up with you banning a person with legitimate "accessibility needs", leading to a huge PR issues and potential lawsuit.

 

they aren't banning the XIM because the XIM itself does not need a dedicated API.   it is like a leech that uses whatever it third party API hardware it can get its hands on.   

 

Case is closed.    -  proof is in the reality of nothing being banned, hasn't been banned yet, and wont be banned in the future.   

Not sure why you cling to some random notion that every AAA developer who wants a fair fight and hates input conversion devices is choosing not to exercise some supposedly easy fix because reasons.........

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7 minutes ago, RL4LIFE said:

well if you want to continue quoting mike Ybarra - he exactly says on what grounds

 

" We could but there are helpful scenarios with these devices (accessibility for one). Our general approach is to empower the developer to manage their game how they want. "

good luck with the PR campaign after you ban the device little hadicap Jim uses to play a game.

 

and then if you do further research instead of just taking random context quotes to support you,  you will see that of course Devs can use APIs to detect what type of hardware is being used.  If the hardware is known to be used by an XIM they could indeed "not allow it"  

 

but- herin lies the problem, you are banning whatever input device the xim is using, NOT the xim.   

 

John uses controller LXZY to hook up his XIM through.   the XIM has software loaded to use that API and convert the inputs as pass through for keyboard and mouse.

bill uses the same controller LXZY but without an XIM

 

the developer has now banned both of them even though only 1 was using an XIM


and to top it all off XIM manufacture gets wind of this and then just pushes updates for different API's.    This results in XIM and the Devs playing a cat and mouse game that just results in people who aren't using XIM having their hardware banned and XIM users just adapting while the DEV plays catch up and never really fix the problem. 

 

so from a dev perspective, you would be spending resources fighting a never ending battle   -   with dozens and dozens of innocent casualties, that could end up with you banning a person with legitimate "accessibility needs", leading to a huge PR issues and potential lawsuit.

 

they aren't banning the XIM because the XIM itself does not need a dedicated API.   it is like a leech that uses whatever it third party API hardware it can get its hands on.   

 

Case is closed.    -  proof is in the reality of nothing being banned, hasn't been banned yet, and wont be banned in the future.   

Not sure why you cling to some random notion that every AAA developer who wants a fair fight and hates input conversion devices is choosing not to exercise some supposedly easy fix because reasons.........

 

Are they able to dectect and separate the lobbies?  Where’s the transparency from the developer? Just tell us straight up what’s going on , if anything.

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9 minutes ago, SezualCH0ch1ate said:

 

Are they able to dectect and separate the lobbies?  Where’s the transparency from the developer? Just tell us straight up what’s going on , if anything.

it is an emulator.   it can't be detected.

well in a sense it can.   devs can tell what types of APIs are being hooked up and if those devices are typically used by an emulator.     so yes, they could ban or segregate those into different lobbies.   

 

The problem then arises when XIM gets wind of this, learns the new handshakes or APIs that are being detected and banned/segregated.  and then proceeds to issue a firmware update to get around it.

 

This then results in all the XIM people being back into the game and into regular lobbies, while the segregated lobbies are now filled with all the innocent third party API controllers that got segregated and is now the only place free from input conversion devices.

 

This circle could then go round and round until the Devs or the XIM people got tired of spending money and give up.    

-odds are that the DEVs would give up first because they are doing more work and hurting more innocent third party API uses in the process. 

but because of this pointless round and round fight that would inevitably ensue....  and the fact that it would just make tons of people angry- it wont ever happen.     

 

and all the devs are doing is trying to do in the first place is stop the maybe 1% of users actually using XIM which would ultimately be unsuccessful anyways.       which is why nothing will be done about it

 

Edited by RL4LIFE

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2 minutes ago, RL4LIFE said:

it is an emulator.   it can't be detected.

well in a sense it can.   devs can tell what types of APIs are being hooked up and if those devices are typically used by an emulator.     so yes, they could ban or segregate those into different lobbies.   

 

The problem then arises when XIM gets wind of this, learns the new handshakes or APIs that are being detected and banned/segregated.  and then proceeds to issue a firmware update to get around it.

 

This then results in all the XIM people being back into the game and into regular lobbies, while the segregated lobbies are now filled with all the innocent third party API controllers that got segregated and is now the only place free from input conversion devices.

 

This circle could then go round and round until the Devs or the XIM people got tired of spending money and give up.    

-odds are that the DEVs would give up first because they are doing more work and hurting more innocent third party API uses in the process. 

but because of this pointless round and round fight that would inevitably result and the fact that it would just make tons of people angry- it wont ever happen.     

 

and all the devs are doing is trying to do in the first place is stop the maybe 1% of users actually using XIM which would ultimately be unsuccessful anyways.       which is why nothing will be done about it

 

 

Thanks man. Great explanation! It would be cool if they just outright say that themselves. They see how many people are passionate about this topic. They read the forum too!

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1 hour ago, I Bad Co I said:

 

 If it’s so easy, why has no AAA developer or PUBG not done it yet ?

If the emulator produces exactly the same output as the controller how can the API be detected ?

 

 

It's extremely easy for Microsoft to detect it at the console level. One example is a thumbstick vs a keyboard. Thumbsticks have positions on the x and y axis from -100 (all the way down/left) to +100 (all the way up/right), and 0 is default position. So when the deadzone setting is 10 in pubg for example, that means you can move the thumbstick + or - 10 units in any direction before any  input is registered by the game. How I describe is exactly how it's measured by the console. So if you put the thumbstick half way up, to walk (not run) forward for example, it's at position +50, and every position 0 through +49 gets touched on the way there. Keyboard keys have only two positions, not pressed (0), and pressed (100). So when the only input by the players movement is 0 or 100, they are clearly using a keyboard. As mentioned, Microsoft and most likely all developers will keep the KB&M option available for accessibility reasons.

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26 minutes ago, RL4LIFE said:

well if you want to continue quoting mike Ybarra - he exactly says on what grounds

 

" We could but there are helpful scenarios with these devices (accessibility for one). Our general approach is to empower the developer to manage their game how they want. "

good luck with the PR campaign after you ban the device little hadicap Jim uses to play a game.

 

and then if you do further research instead of just taking random context quotes to support you,  you will see that of course Devs can use APIs to detect what type of hardware is being used.  If the hardware is known to be used by an XIM they could indeed "not allow it"  

 

but- herin lies the problem, you are banning whatever input device the xim is using, NOT the xim.   

 

John uses controller LXZY to hook up his XIM through.   the XIM has software loaded to use that API and convert the inputs as pass through for keyboard and mouse.

bill uses the same controller LXZY but without an XIM

 

the developer has now banned both of them even though only 1 was using an XIM


and to top it all off XIM manufacture gets wind of this and then just pushes updates for different API's.    This results in XIM and the Devs playing a cat and mouse game that just results in people who aren't using XIM having their hardware banned and XIM users just adapting while the DEV plays catch up and never really fix the problem. 

 

so from a dev perspective, you would be spending resources fighting a never ending battle   -   with dozens and dozens of innocent casualties, that could end up with you banning a person with legitimate "accessibility needs", leading to a huge PR issues and potential lawsuit.

 

they aren't banning the XIM because the XIM itself does not need a dedicated API.   it is like a leech that uses whatever it third party API hardware it can get its hands on.   

 

Case is closed.    -  proof is in the reality of nothing being banned, hasn't been banned yet, and wont be banned in the future.   

Not sure why you cling to some random notion that every AAA developer who wants a fair fight and hates input conversion devices is choosing not to exercise some supposedly easy fix because reasons.........

First off I want to say I appreciate your point of view, not many would spend the time to have this type of discussion - That being said I would like to make a few points of my own regarding what I said - I didn't say using APIs to block third party devices was easy or even the best way to go about rectifying this issue, a far similar solution is to just incorporate split lobbies like you said but they haven't done that either and that's the million dollar question, why not? 

 

I don't pretend to know the motivations behind the developers, so to say I "cling to some random notion that every AAA developer who wants a fair fight and hates input conversion devices is choosing not to exercise some supposedly easy fix because reasons.." is less than even half true lol I acknowledge that motivations vary largely from developer to developer, but PUBG has made their stance clear in the past that they are dedicated to maintaining a level playing field, as competitive as PUBG is that makes sense, since that is the case I have to believe they have some sort of plan for this that will curb the use of M&K that won't involve a PR nightmare. That being said if third party emulators were banned, it would be well within their ability and legal right to do so. I also have a hard time seeing little handicapped Jim wanting to go to court rather than just switching to PC. 

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1 hour ago, RL4LIFE said:

now its my turn!   

 

"Amazing, everything* you just said is wrong lol "

 

 

*highlighted text
 

 

Also this - I literally pulled that definition of API out of a textbook, so I assure you it's 100% correct ?

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1 minute ago, dreamleash31 said:

Also this - I literally pulled that definition of API out of a textbook, so I assure you it's 100% correct ?

you didn't read my asterisk :) lol

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16 minutes ago, RL4LIFE said:

it is an emulator.   it can't be detected.

well in a sense it can.   devs can tell what types of APIs are being hooked up and if those devices are typically used by an emulator.     so yes, they could ban or segregate those into different lobbies.   
 

This is wrong for the reasons I just posted previously. There are many other ways to detect patterns made by the use of KB&M over a controller. Do you think games detect cheaters based on what APIs they've "hooked up"?

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12 minutes ago, SiXXX said:

It's extremely easy for Microsoft to detect it at the console level. One example is a thumbstick vs a keyboard. Thumbsticks have positions on the x and y axis from -100 (all the way down/left) to +100 (all the way up/right), and 0 is default position. So when the deadzone setting is 10 in pubg for example, that means you can move the thumbstick + or - 10 units in any direction before any  input is registered by the game. How I describe is exactly how it's measured by the console. So if you put the thumbstick half way up, to walk (not run) forward for example, it's at position +50, and every position 0 through +49 gets touched on the way there. Keyboard keys have only two positions, not pressed (0), and pressed (100). So when the only input by the players movement is 0 or 100, they are clearly using a keyboard. As mentioned, Microsoft and most likely all developers will keep the KB&M option available for accessibility reasons.

this is actually a really good point about putting in coding...   but see below:

 

 the XIM is a passthrough, so it ultimately just converts whatever the keybaord does to a command through the controller.    so they could just issue a firmware update that applies the "keyboard" press in a more natural gradual way.  i.e  ramps from 0-100 over a given time period reasonable for a thumb to do.   or doesn't stop at 100 but stops at 99  and then 98  and then 100 the next time    -  it may already actually do this

 

 

XIM isn't so much a device as an active tool.   that is constantly trying to make itself invisible

Edited by RL4LIFE

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1 minute ago, RL4LIFE said:

this is actually a really good point about putting in coding...   but see below:

 

 the XIM is a passthrough, so it ultimately just converts whatever the keybaord does to a command through the controller.    so they could just issue a firmware update that applies the "keyboard" press in a more natural gradual way.  i.e  ramps from 0-100 over a given time period reasonable for a thumb to do.   or doesn't stop at 100 but stops at 99  and then 98  and then 100 the next time

Which would again create an identical pattern each time the key is pressed. Until xim started randomizing the thumbstick position every time the key is pressed to prevent any pattern, compromising user experience because they might actually just want to run.

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11 minutes ago, dreamleash31 said:

First off I want to say I appreciate your point of view, not many would spend the time to have this type of discussion - That being said I would like to make a few points of my own regarding what I said - I didn't say using APIs to block third party devices was easy or even the best way to go about rectifying this issue, a far similar solution is to just incorporate split lobbies like you said but they haven't done that either and that's the million dollar question, why not? 

 

I don't pretend to know the motivations behind the developers, so to say I "cling to some random notion that every AAA developer who wants a fair fight and hates input conversion devices is choosing not to exercise some supposedly easy fix because reasons.." is less than even half true lol I acknowledge that motivations vary largely from developer to developer, but PUBG has made their stance clear in the past that they are dedicated to maintaining a level playing field, as competitive as PUBG is that makes sense, since that is the case I have to believe they have some sort of plan for this that will curb the use of M&K that won't involve a PR nightmare. That being said if third party emulators were banned, it would be well within their ability and legal right to do so. I also have a hard time seeing little handicapped Jim wanting to go to court rather than just switching to PC. 

lol, thanks!   i apprciate yours too, even though i have trouble seeing it   (the bane of posting in forums)   i have a feeling in person we would find some mutual ground we both agree

 

 

and I have see far less things go to court, especially when the plaintiff has found a "cause" they are wanting to push.   which in this case would be accessibility to all gamers

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Just now, SiXXX said:

Which would again create an identical pattern each time the key is pressed. Until xim started randomizing the thumbstick position every time the key is pressed to prevent any pattern, compromising user experience because they might actually just want to run.

lol going back to what i said originally.    a round and round circle.    and users will likely not notice little variations in their controls that are small.   and even if they did, if that was what was required to play the game with the "M&K" advantage im sure they would take it regardless.

 

like i said,  whole lot of work on the Dev part to try and stop something that will just change itself again.   not worth it

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8 minutes ago, RL4LIFE said:

lol going back to what i said originally.    a round and round circle.    and users will likely not notice little variations in their controls that are small.   and even if they did, if that was what was required to play the game with the "M&K" advantage im sure they would take it regardless.

 

like i said,  whole lot of work on the Dev part to try and stop something that will just change itself again.   not worth it

I agree they won't bother to ban the use of the xim, but that's not because they can't detect it. They know who and how many people are using it. It's just not as big an issue that many are making it out to be.

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6 minutes ago, SiXXX said:

I agree they won't bother to ban the use of the xim, but that's not because they can't detect it. They know who and how many people are using it. It's just not as big an issue that many are making it out to be.

I agree and don't at the same time.

they can't detect it naturally.   as it is a pass through device for something they can detect.  

if they weed down what specific APIs are using XIM then they have that information (detected so to speak) - which XIM wont care about

if the choose to write code to analyze input styles, then yes they can detect that.  which XIM wont care about.  

 

now here is the Crux....  if they choose to DO something with that information, then XIM will just adapt and change handshake protocols, or adjust firmware for movement analyzing, and then BOOM its undetectable again.

 

so when I say its undetectable i mean that they can BE undetectable.     if the Devs are spying and have found them, but aren't doing anything about it... then sure they are "detected" in a sense.   but its not True detection, cause they can't be really stopped.

 

when i think of true detection I think of winning the battle and they can't use it anymore.

Edited by RL4LIFE

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